هل تعبير عبدي في نبوة اشعياء تنكر انها نبوة عن صلب المسيح ؟ اشعياء 53: 11

Mary Naeem · رقم المشاركة : ( 1 ) 14 - 06 - 2021, 05:27 PM

هل تعبير عبدي في نبوة اشعياء تنكر انها نبوة عن صلب المسيح ؟ اشعياء 53: 11

Holy_bible_1

الشبهة

اولاً : بحسب الإصحاح فإن من حمل خطية وآثام الكثيرين هو عبد من عباد الله : (( 11 عبدي البار بمعرفته يبرر كثيرين وآثامهم هو يحملها )) وهذا يخالف تماماً عقيدة المسيحيون في الصلب والفداء ، فهم يقولون الفادي هو الله لأنه الوحيد القادر على حمل خطايا البشر ، وبالتالي فإن تمسكهم بهذا الإصحاح سيلزمهم بأن يكون الفادي الذي حمل خطايا البشر المزعومة هو عبد لله وليس ابناً لله وهو ما ينسف فكرة التجسد والكفارة .

الرد
الحقيقه لو درس المشكك التعبيرات اللفظيه جيدا لفهم انه لا يوجد شبهة في هذا الامر
وقد شرحت سابقا في ملف عبدي ام فتاي اشعياء 42: 1
وساشرح هنا مره اخري مع بعض الاختلافات
العدد يقول
سفر اشعياء 53

53: 11 من تعب نفسه يرى و يشبع و عبدي البار بمعرفته يبرر كثيرين و اثامهم هو يحملها

بل اذكر ايضا في الاصحاح السابق

52: 13 هوذا عبدي يعقل يتعالى و يرتقي و يتسامى جدا

52: 14 كما اندهش منك كثيرون كان منظره كذا مفسدا اكثر من الرجل و صورته اكثر من بني ادم
ومعني كلمة عبيد في العبري

H5650

עבד

‛ebed

BDB Definition:

1) slave, servant

1a) slave, servant, man-servant

1b) subjects

1c) servants, worshippers (of God)

1d) servant (in special sense as prophets, Levites etc)

1e) servant (of Israel)

1f) servant (as form of address between equals)

Part of Speech: noun masculine

A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5647

Same Word by TWOT Number: 1553a

عبد , خادم , خدام,
يخدم موضوع
خادم الرب
خادم بمعني نبي وايضا لاويين
خادم اسرائيل
خادم ولكن يحمل معني التساوي
والكلمه اتت من مصدر عباد العبري التي تعني

H5647

עבד

‛âbad

BDB Definition:

1) to work, serve

1a) (Qal)

1a1) to labour, work, do work

1a2) to work for another, serve another by labour

1a3) to serve as subjects

1a4) to serve (God)

1a5) to serve (with Levitical service)

1b) (Niphal)

1b1) to be worked, be tilled (of land)

1b2) to make oneself a servant

1c) (Pual) to be worked

1d) (Hiphil)

1d1) to compel to labour or work, cause to labour, cause to serve

1d2) to cause to serve as subjects

1e) (Hophal) to be led or enticed to serve

Part of Speech: verb

A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root

Same Word by TWOT Number: 1553

يعمل يخدم يعمل للاخر يخدم اخر يخدم الرب يجعل نفسه خادم
ويشرح لنا قاموس
دراسة كاملة لكلمات الكتاب

H5650

ֶעֶבד

‛eḇeḏ: A masculine noun meaning a servant, a slave. Although the most basic concept of this term is that of a slave, slavery in the Bible was not the same as the slavery of modern times. The period of slavery was limited to six years (Exo_21:2). Slaves had rights and protection under the Law (Exo_21:20). It was also possible for slaves to attain positions of power and honor (Gen_24:2; Gen_41:12). In addition, the people under the king were called his servants (Gen_21:25); as well as his officers (1Sa_19:1); officials (2Ki_22:12); ambassadors (Num_22:18); vassal kings (2Sa_10:19); tributary nations (1Ch_18:2, 1Ch_18:6, 1Ch_18:13). This word is also a humble way of referring to one's self when speaking with another of equal or superior rank (Gen_33:5). The term is also applied to those who worship God (Neh_1:10); and to those who minister or serve Him (Isa_49:5-6). The phrase, the servant of the Lord, is the most outstanding reference to the Messiah in the Old Testament, and its teachings are concentrated at the end of Isaiah (Isa_42:1, Isa_42:19; Isa_43:10; Isa_49:3, Isa_49:5-7; Isa_52:13; Isa_53:11).

اسم مذكر يعني خادم وعبد وايضا تعني مبدأ عبد ولكن العبودية في الكتاب ليست بمعني العبودية حديثة الوقت لان فترة العبودية كانت محدودة بست سنين ( خر 21: 2 ) والعبيد لهم حقوق وحماية تحت القانون ( خر 21: 20 ) وكان متاح للعبد ان يحصل علي اماكن قوة وكرامة ( تك 24: 2 و تك 41: 12 ) بالاضافة ان الرجال تحت الملك يدعون عبيده ( تك 21: 25 ) وكذلك مسؤلينه ومديري مكاتبه ( 1 صم 19: 1 ) ورؤساء ( 2 مل 22: 12 ) وسفراء ( عدد 22: 18 ) وتابعي الملوك ( 2 صم 10: 19 ) والامم دافعي الضرائب ( 1 اي 18: 2 و 1 اي 18: 6 و 1 اي 18: 13 ) وهي ايضا لفظ طريقة تواضع يشير الي شخصه عندما يكلم شخص اخر مساوي له او اعلي ( تك 33: 5 ) وتعبير ايضا ينطبق علي عابدي الرب ( نح 1: 10 ) و قسيسيه وخدامه ( اش 49: 5-6 ) والتعبير عبد الرب اكثر تعبير بارز يشير الي المسيح في العهد القديم وتعليمه وبخاصه مركز في نهاية اشعياء ( اش 42: 1 و اش 42: 19 و اش 43: 10 و اش 49: 3 و اش 49: 5-7 و اش 52: 13 و اش 53: 11 )
وللاسف المشكك يحمل في ذهنه خلفيته الاسلاميه في فهم معني العبيد وملكات اليمين ولكن هذا المفهوم غير موجود في الفكر اليهودي
ولهذا الترجمات الانجليزيه كتبت خادم

(AKJ) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

(ACV) He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied. By the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities.

(AMP) He shall see [the fruit] of the travail of His soul and be satisfied; by His knowledge of Himself [which He possesses and imparts to others] shall My [uncompromisingly] righteous One, My Servant, justify many and make many righteous (upright and in right standing with God), for He shall bear their iniquities and their guilt [with the consequences, says the Lord].

(ASV) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities.

(VW) He shall see the travail of His soul, and shall be fulfilled. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities.

(Bishops) Of the trauayle and labour of his soule, shall he see the fruite & be satisfied: My righteous seruaunt shall with his knowledge iustifie the multitude, for he shall beare their sinnes.

(CEV) By suffering, the servant will learn the true meaning of obeying the LORD. Although he is innocent, he will take the punishment for the sins of others, so that many of them will no longer be guilty.

(CJB) After this ordeal, he will see satisfaction. "By his knowing [pain and sacrifice], my righteous servant makes many righteous; it is for their sins that he suffers.

(CLV) From the toil of His soul shall He see light. And He shall be satisfied by His knowledge. My righteous Servant shall justify many, and with their depravities shall He be burdened."

(clVulgate) Pro eo quod laboravit anima ejus, videbit et saturabitur. In scientia sua justificabit ipse justus servus meus multos, et iniquitates eorum ipse portabit.

(Darby) He shall see of the fruit of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant instruct many in righteousness; and *he* shall bear their iniquities.

(DRB) Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities.

(ESV) Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see[9] and be satisfied;

by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,

make many to be accounted righteous,

and he shall bear their iniquities.

(ERV) After his suffering he will see the light, and he will be satisfied with what he experienced. The Lord says, "My servant, who always does what is right, will make his people right with me; he will take away their sins.

(Geneva) Hee shall see of the trauaile of his soule, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous seruant iustifie many: for hee shall beare their iniquities.

(GNB) After a life of suffering, he will again have joy; he will know that he did not suffer in vain. My devoted servant, with whom I am pleased, will bear the punishment of many and for his sake I will forgive them.

(GW) He will see and be satisfied because of his suffering. My righteous servant will acquit many people because of what he has learned through suffering. He will carry their sins as a burden.

(HCSB-r) He will see [it] out of His anguish,

and He will be satisfied with His knowledge.

My righteous servant will justify many,

and He will carry their iniquities.

(HNV) He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities.

(csb) He will see [it] out of His anguish,

and He will be satisfied with His knowledge.

My righteous servant will justify many,

and He will carry their iniquities.

(IAV) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

(ISRAV) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

(JST) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied; by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

(JOSMTH) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied; by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

(KJ2000) He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

(KJV) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

(KJV-1611) He shall see of the trauell of his soule, and shalbe satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous seruant iustifie many: for hee shall beare their iniquities.

(KJV21) He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.

(KJVA) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

(LBP) He shall see the reward of the travail of his soul, and be satisfied with the knowledge; he shall justify the righteous; for he is a servant of many, and he shall bear their sins.

(Lamsa) He shall see the reward of the travail of his soul, and be satisfied with the knowledge; he shall justify the righteous; for he is a servant of many, and he shall bear their sins.

(LITV) He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul; He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge the righteous One, My Servant, shall justify for many, and He shall bear their iniquities.

(MKJV) He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul. He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify for many; and He shall bear their iniquities.

(MSG) Out of that terrible travail of soul, he'll see that it's worth it and be glad he did it. Through what he experienced, my righteous one, my servant, will make many "righteous ones," as he himself carries the burden of their sins.

(NCV) "After his soul suffers many things, he will see life and be satisfied. My good servant will make many people right with God; he will carry away their sins.

(NET.) Having suffered, he will reflect on his work, he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done. "My servant will acquit many, for he carried their sins.

(NET) Having suffered, he will reflect on his work, he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done.31 "My servant32 will acquit many,33 for he carried their sins.34

(NAB-A) Because of his affliction he shall see the light in fullness of days; Through his suffering, my servant shall justify many, and their guilt he shall bear.

(NIRV) After he suffers, he will see the light that leads to life. And he will be satisfied. My godly servant will make many people godly because of what he will accomplish. He will be punished for their sins.

(NIV) After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

(NIVUK) After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

(NKJV) He shall see the labor of His soul,[b]and be satisfied.

By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,

For He shall bear their iniquities.

(NLT) When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins.

(NLV) He will see what the suffering of His soul brings, and will be pleased. By what He knows, the One Who is right and good, My Servant, will carry the punishment of many and He will carry their sins.

(nrs) Out of his anguish he shall see light; [168] he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge. The righteous one, [169] my servant, shall make many righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

(NRSV) Out of his anguish he shall see light; he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge. The righteous one, my servant, shall make many righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

(NWT) Because of the trouble of his soul he will see, he will be satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear.

(RNKJV) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

(RSVA) he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities.

(RV) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many: and he shall bear their iniquities.

(TMB) He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.

(TNIV) After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

(Vulgate) pro eo quod laboravit anima eius videbit et saturabitur in scientia sua iustificabit ipse iustus servus meus multos et iniquitates eorum ipse portabit

(Webster) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

(YLT) Of the labour of his soul he seeth--he is satisfied, Through his knowledge give righteousness Doth the righteous one, My servant, to many, And their iniquities he doth bear.

والترجمه السبعينيه كتبت يخدم

(LXX)ἀπὸ τοῦ πόνου τῆς ψυχῆς αὐτοῦ, δεῖξαι αὐτῷ φῶς καὶ πλάσαι τῇ συνέσει, δικαιῶσαι δίκαιον εὖδουλεύοντα πολλοῖς, καὶ τὰς ἁμαρτίας αὐτῶν αὐτὸς ἀνοίσει.

(ABP+) AndG2532thelord willedG1014G2962 byG1722 his handG5495G1473 to removeG851 miseryG4192G3588 of his soul,G5590G1473 to showG1166 to himG1473light,G5457 andG2532 to shapeG4111 in theG3588 understanding;G4907 to justifyG1344the just one,G1342the good oneG2095 servingG1398 many,G4183 andG2532G3588 [3their sinsG266G14731heG14732shall bear].G399

(Brenton) the Lord also is pleased to take away from the travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form him with understanding; to justify the just one who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins.

وايضا ترجمة اليهود انفسهم

(JPS) Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.

فهل فهم المشكك معني الكلمه ؟
هذا لغويا
واليهود يفهمون هذا المعني جيدا فمثلا
فكثيرا ما استخدم لقب عبد عن انسان يخدم الاخر رغم انه مساوي له
فابراهيم كان ينادي ضيوفه بانه عبدهم

سفر التكوين 18: 3

وَقَالَ: «يَا سَيِّدُ، إِنْ كُنْتُ قَدْ وَجَدْتُ نِعْمَةً فِيعَيْنَيْكَ فَلاَ تَتَجَاوَزْعَبْدَكَ.
ولوط ايضا

سفر التكوين 19: 2

وَقَالَ: «يَا سَيِّدَيَّ، مِيلاَ إِلَى بَيْتِعَبْدِكُمَاوَبِيتَا وَاغْسِلاَ أَرْجُلَكُمَا، ثُمَّتُبَكِّرَانِ وَتَذْهَبَانِ فِي طَرِيقِكُمَا». فَقَالاَ: «لاَ، بَلْ فِيالسَّاحَةِ نَبِيتُ».
ويعقوب لاخيه

سفر التكوين 32: 4

وَأَمَرَهُمْ قَائِلاً: «هكَذَا تَقُولُونَ لِسَيِّدِي عِيسُوَ: هكَذَا قَالَعَبْدُكَيَعْقُوبُ: تَغَرَّبْتُ عِنْدَلاَبَانَ وَلَبِثْتُ إِلَى الآنَ.

سفر التكوين 33: 5

ثُمَّ رَفَعَ عَيْنَيْهِ وَأَبْصَرَ النِّسَاءَ وَالأَوْلاَدَوَقَالَ: «مَا هؤُلاَءِ مِنْكَ؟» فَقَالَ: «الأَوْلاَدُ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللهُبِهِمْ عَلَىعَبْدِكَ».
وايضا الابن لابوه

سفر ملاخي 3: 17

«وَيَكُونُونَ لِي، قَالَ رَبُّ الْجُنُودِ، فِي الْيَوْمِالَّذِي أَنَا صَانِعٌ خَاصَّةً، وَأُشْفِقُ عَلَيْهِمْ كَمَا يُشْفِقُالإِنْسَانُعَلَىابْنِهِالَّذِييَخْدِمُهُ.
فالمفهوم ليس فيه شيئ ولكنه عن عمل المسيح في الفداء والكهنوت ايضا مع ملاحظة ان الكاهن هو خادم
والمسيح بالفعل هو الله الظاهر في الجسد ولكنه في تجسده اخذ صورة العبد لاجلنا
رسالة بولس الرسول الي اهل فيلبي 2

6 الَّذِي إِذْ كَانَ فِي صُورَةِ اللهِ، لَمْ يَحْسِبْ خُلْسَةً أَنْ يَكُونَ مُعَادِلاً للهِ.
7 لكِنَّهُ أَخْلَى نَفْسَهُ، آخِذًا صُورَةَ عَبْدٍ، صَائِرًا فِي شِبْهِ النَّاسِ.
8 وَإِذْ وُجِدَ فِي الْهَيْئَةِ كَإِنْسَانٍ، وَضَعَ نَفْسَهُ وَأَطَاعَ حَتَّى الْمَوْتَ مَوْتَ الصَّلِيبِ.

والرب يسوع المسيح ايضا ذكر ذلك

إنجيل متى 20: 28

كَمَا أَنَّابْنَالإِنْسَانِلَمْ يَأْتِلِيُخْدَمَبَلْلِيَخْدِمَ،وَلِيَبْذِلَ نَفْسَهُ فِدْيَةً عَنْكَثِيرِينَ».

إنجيل لوقا 22: 27

لأَنْ مَنْ هُوَ أَكْبَرُ: أَلَّذِي يَتَّكِئُ أَمِ الَّذِييَخْدُمُ؟أَلَيْسَ الَّذِي يَتَّكِئُ؟ وَلكِنِّي أَنَابَيْنَكُمْكَالَّذِييَخْدُمُ.
انجيل يوحنا 13

13 أَنْتُمْ تَدْعُونَنِي مُعَلِّمًا وَسَيِّدًا، وَحَسَنًا تَقُولُونَ، لأَنِّي أَنَا كَذلِكَ.
14 فَإِنْ كُنْتُ وَأَنَا السَّيِّدُ وَالْمُعَلِّمُ قَدْ غَسَلْتُ أَرْجُلَكُمْ، فَأَنْتُمْ يَجِبُ عَلَيْكُمْ أَنْ يَغْسِلَ بَعْضُكُمْ أَرْجُلَ بَعْضٍ،
15 لأَنِّي أَعْطَيْتُكُمْ مِثَالاً، حَتَّى كَمَا صَنَعْتُ أَنَا بِكُمْ تَصْنَعُونَ أَنْتُمْ أَيْضًا.

ومتي البشير شرحها

إنجيل متى 12:

27 وَمَنْ أَرَادَ أَنْ يَكُونَ فِيكُمْ أَوَّلاً فَلْيَكُنْ لَكُمْ عَبْدًا،
28 كَمَا أَنَّ ابْنَ الإِنْسَانِ لَمْ يَأْتِ لِيُخْدَمَ بَلْ لِيَخْدِمَ، وَلِيَبْذِلَ نَفْسَهُ فِدْيَةً عَنْ كَثِيرِينَ».

وهو فقط تواضع

رسالة بولس الرسول الثانية إلى أهل كورنثوس 8: 9

فَإِنَّكُمْ تَعْرِفُونَ نِعْمَةَ رَبِّنَا يَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحِ،أَنَّهُ مِنْ أَجْلِكُمُافْتَقَرَوَهُوَ غَنِيٌّ، لِكَيْتَسْتَغْنُواأَنْتُمْ بِفَقْرِهِ.
واعتقد الاعداد كافيه بتوضيح الفكر عن تواضع المسيح
والمجد لله دائما